While I currently have NetBSD installed, I often find myself reading alot about OpenBSD and I often see a lot interesting OpenBSD setups on Reddit etc. I understand that OpenBSD was originally forked from NetBSD and while i'm happy with NetBSD, but I feel like I'm having a bit of FOMO... is the grass greener on the other side? Can anyone with a bit more experience than me put a simple comparison together for me to understand why OpenBSD is seemingly more popular (clearly not the case on this forum however) ... or am I just imagining things?

pfr i would say try both OpenBSD and NetBSD and pick one that suits your need 🙂 i previously used OpenBSD and ran vps on OpenBSD 5.5. but currently NetBSD user for my needs.

pfr why OpenBSD is seemingly more popular Why do most posts on r/unixporn are of Arch with i3 with a anime girl wallpaper? Preferences If you really need to know follow @Jay 's suggestion and explore both. If you are a bit like me and, are happy with what you run, why bother? I've never been a "distrohopper", just looked for something I liked. Started with Mint and found it too bloated, moved over to Peppermint and got enough of systemd . Had a go with Porteus and in the meantime got tired of DE's in general. Three years ago installed Void with awesomewm running with musl libC and was home. I still use it although, it made me curious about NetBSD and here I am. Except for the above, I've only touched Bodhi , as my 8 year old uses it as her OS, and have been wanting to take Alpine or Adélie for a spin 😉 Choices...

why OpenBSD is seemingly more popular Security theatre

i love openbsd and netbsd, but i would never use openbsd in anything resembling production environment.. i use it on my main machine, i love its simplicity, but the speed and reliability are nowhere near netbsd

pin Thanks. I think I needed to hear that. There is nothing I dislike about NetBSD, I think I was just curious what draws people to OpenBSD. But I dont like distohopping either so I think I'll stick it out. Still a completely minimal installation so perhaps I should just install a few more programs lol

OpenBSD is an outstanding OS, well-documented, simple, consistent and tightly integrated, with good defaults (no need to adjust much on a default installation before having a working system for everyday use). While I partially agree with Nia, one has to give credit where credit is due, and OpenBSD, throughout all its history as a R&D UNIX with a focus on code correctness, cryptography and security, deserves praise for the many good ideas they came up with (OpenSSH, PF, CARP, W^X....). OpenBSD has invested a lot of energy in desktop support and tends to just work (often including graphics -with the exception of nvidia-, ACPI, touchpads). The OS comes with a really nice set of native software allowing one to easily deploy simple and secure servers. It actively supports several CPU architectures (less than NetBSD), and some happen to be very well maintained, especially SPARC64, with a nice deamon to manage LDOMs, and macPPC. Generally speaking, OpenBSD is regarded as an optimal choice for small to medium size appliances directly facing the internet and is particularly suited for firewalls, routers, DNS, DHCP, VPN/Tor, Web, mail servers. On the other hand, their attitude and philosophy (their pride) make them always want to advertise each and every feature or component of their OS, as well as any commit merged into mainstream adding even the most negligible feature. Just have a look at their official innovations page. There's a undoubtedly lot of remarkable efforts mentioned there, but also a lot of entries which do not appear as much 'important' . NetBSD or Linux could host similar 'innovations' pages (and the list would be long); the question is, however, what purpose would such an effort serve? NetBSD devs maintain a patched monolithic X version in base (as well as a modular one inside the pkgsrc tree), and yet they didn't renamed it with a flashy nick seemingly coming from a Infocom fiction^[1] Instead OpenBSD devs imported and patched Xorg (for a rootless default setup, to enhance privilege separation), then imported and patched XDM by removing XDMCP, and decided to name the former hack Xenocara and the latter Xenodm. Hope you've never come across a OpenBSD fanatic, not seldom clearly clueless about the OS design and internals (naturally, and fortunately, most of the fanboyism has nothing to do with developers; it largely comes from young KISS UNIX zealots migrating from Linux), bragging about the many features of Xenocara, 'a stripped down Xorg fork with many indispensable security improvements, devoid of all the cluttered nonsense, because X is flawed and broken...., blah, blah'. I'm probably speaking too much and need to be quicker now. What I wanted to stress is that much of that incredible popularity you seem to refer to is at least in part built upon a series of fandom-driven half truths and misconceptions, as well as a very good amount of official advertising campaigns, fueling the hype. OpenBSD overall feels like a big boring monolithic piece of software. Default installation and default settings are strongly recommended and devs tend not to like exotic configurations. All of their software appears built with the same philosophy in mind. Software should be installed via binary packages, no much left to say. At time feels like a OS built by developers for themselves, kindly shared for others to use (but if you dare ask a question, it's mostly RTFM). They're not interested in your feedback, if you want something to change you'd better come on the mailing lists with a PR ready to be reviewed, at least. Whatever is left orphaned without somebody eager to take up full-time maintainership, is quickly deprecated and it doesn't take much for it to be removed. Linux compat and bluetooth met such a fate. OpenBSD has no multilib, so no wine and their hypervisor (vmm) is still very limited both in its capabilities (IIRC each VM cannot use more than a core at a time) and in supported clients. The only FS available is FFSv1/2, which provides no journaling (though it has soft updates), no snapshots and no TRIM support. NIH is also one of their problems. One thing I miss on OpenBSD is tmpfs (no, mfs is not a valid replacementt). Julio Merino created NetBSD's tmpfs long ago, and their implementation was quickly imported in FreeBSD. tmpfs was later ported to OpenBSD too, but left unmaintained after a while and eventually removed. To sum up, not much to discover, not much space left to hack around, not many cool and obscure features to explore. That's the main reason which I don't like OpenBSD for (performance aside, since the difference in my experience is not so significant on desktop and can be overcome, unless you run a high-end workstation and have some heavy workload to undergo or performance requirements to meet). In this regard NetBSD is quite the opposite, pure freedom. Among Linuces, I love Slackware because it shares with it this same approach: "here's your fresh UNIX framework, do what the hell you want with it". And then there's pkgsrc. I would have never discovered NetBSD hadn't it been for pkgsrc; it represents for me alone a good reason to stay already. There are many things I find brilliant and extremely useful about that packaging system, but I really need to go now, so perhaps we can discuss it another time. ^[1] I remember, from the good times when I was still following BSDtalk, that Matthieu Herrb stated he had discovered that word while looking into Latin names of fish species; he liked it and decided to borrow it. Truthfully speaking, as one who studied ancient Greek, I can tell that name is of Greek derivation for sure and means something like 'foreign face'.

I've been using Linux since 1995. At some point, I had an opportunity to install Linux on most machines at work... And I discovered the systemd nightmare. I was lucky to find Devuan at the moment to get myself out of that mess, but since then, I've been actively looking for alternatives. It seems that in 2020, the only dependable Linux distro is Void. That's a bit scary! Last year, I decided to explore the BSD family. The most accessible to me was FreeBSD and I learned a lot with it. However, in spite of all its qualities, there are 2 aspects that made me continue my exploration: FreeBSD package dependencies are a terrible mess (and nobody cares because of jails); and FreeBSD seems to attract more and more of the kind of people that make me feel a stranger in the Linux world. When NetBSD 9 was released, I decided to give it a try but couldn't succeed in installing a desktop environment due to repository problems. I only succeeded very recently, a couple of weeks ago. In the meantime, I have also tested OpenBSD 6.6 more seriously than last year. There are good things in OpenBSD but they are totally eclipsed by the attitude of the community. It is obvious that OpenBSD is developed by a gang of old friends for their sole pleasure and that they despise the rest of the universe. I have had my content of such people in the Linux world (e.g. Gnome, Debian...), stop! Moreover, OpenBSD is terribly slow, I don't see any valid reason to use it over anything else. The reason why I'm motivated to spend more time and efforts on NetBSD now is that I feel a better fit with the values and culture of its community. Because in the end, the most important criterion when choosing an open source OS is the people it makes you meet. If it was not for this, why bother? Computers come with Windows or MacOS preinstalled, nobody needs an open source OS for practical or technical reasons. The only true reason why we do need an open source OS is the philosophy and values it carries. 🙂

OpenBSD or NetBSD

Off-topic but,...

20-100 It seems that in 2020, the only dependable Linux distro is Void. That's a bit scary!

...although, I do run Void myself, I think Alpine is also an option 😉

EDIT: Unless, of course, if you need GlibC.

JuvenalUrbino

This thread made me doubt a bit about my already sparse knowledge of OpenBSD security, mostly based on the official OpenBSD innovations page, their man pages, the widely shared and accepted beliefs within the BSD community, and a couple of researches I made last year in order to understand the rational and the design concepts behind PaX Team's patches and papers, which were directly implemented later on in many of the OpenBSD's exploit mitigations (as well as HBSD's - it's thanks to Shawn Webb that I discovered PaX - and NetBSD's too actually, kudos to those guys), or at least strongly influenced them.

I wanted to see some less biased perspective (possibly by somebody not coming from the BSD land); I found this site providing quite an in-depth overview of OpenBSD's mitigations, giving credit when it's deserved and backing up criticism with consistent data. It may not be devoid of an anti-OpenBSD attitude (it comes up at times), possibly emphasizing some negligible inconsistencies, but at least, it's the first different voice with a solid enough background I've come across in a very long time.

EDIT: reviewed also this comment for the many typos I tend to make and ignore upon first sight

20-100

OpenBSD only claims "only 2 remote exploits in the base install in a heck of a long time." This is certainly remarkable, but the base install of any OS is totally useless. The purpose of an OS is to allow the execution of applications and here, every OS is equal... :/

JuvenalUrbino

20-100 OpenBSD only claims "only 2 remote exploits in the base install in a heck of a long time." This is certainly remarkable

Regarding this statement, honestly I've never understood what are the inclusion criteria for a bug to qualify as 'remote exploit in the base install'. I think they're limiting the count to remotely exploitable unprivileged arbitrary code execution cases (the first hole was a integer overflow in sshd which allowed remote attackers to execute arbitrary code during challenge response authentication, limited to OpenBSD as it involved BSDAuth, not PAM; the second time a mbuf function in the KAME Ipv6 stack miscalculated the length of the buffer causing an overflow when copying it).

To be honest, I've seen several privilege escalation and DoS vulnerabilities being discovered in OpenBSD within the last few years. I remember a couple of years ago a DoS (memory consumption) affecting their httpd(8), and around a year ago the discovery of a Xorg bug affecting systems with the X binary set setuid (and that specifically happened to be the case of Xenocara as they seemingly needed it for their rootless setup), allowing untrusted users to overwrite system files as root using the -logfile and -modulepath parameters of the X command (they had to disable X login via startx for a while and enforce the use of Xenodm).

If you look at the global CVE count for OpenBSD, the list is quite long, even though many are minor/locally exploitable bugs with a low CVSS score.

More recently Qualys disclosed several privilege escalation bugs, publishing a series of briefs, one of which covered more than one; they also discovered a bug in OpenSMTPD's smtp_mailaddr() function (responsible of validating sender/recipient's domain name by accepting MAIL_FROM and RCPT TO commands), allowing an attacker connecting with a malformed address to send malicious code with root privileges to the shell that executes the MDA. There must be a reason why this doesn't qualify as a third whole in a heck of long time, but I really fail in getting it at the moment. Something clearly doesn't add up here but it falls beyond the range of my limited understanding.

@nia , sorry to bother, care to jump back into this conversation and shed some light upon us mortal beings? 😃

EDIT: as I side note I want to stress the fact that as code is written by other mortal beings, it's perfectly understandable for the fallacious human brain (even that of the greatest genious) to overlook on a mistake once every heck of a long time, so actually having more than 2 holes disclosed in 20+ years of OS history is actually a good thing, since it means the code doesn't rely on security by obscurity and gained wide enough attention to be reviewed outside of the its own development team. cc. @Jay

neb

20-100 IIRC Henning runs an ISP with what comes in base - not entirely useless.
https://www.bsdcan.org/2016/schedule/events/684.en.html

nia

JuvenalUrbino The "remote holes" claim isn't much more than marketing and it's not a useful measurement. As you've identified it's intentionally narrow and vague (no configuration changes, no additional services enabled, no packages installed, full remote code execution? You're not going to run an ISP with that).

OpenSMTPD and the hypervisor have been sources of recent public embarrassment for them (when you make fanciful security claims it usually results in unwanted attention)... I'm old enough to remember Theo's "x86 virtualization is always bad and a security risk" take, a couple of years before they decided hypervisors were Good, Actually, when they're OpenBSD hypervisors.

I trust anything that implements anything vaguely PaX-like to run sketchy code more than anything that doesn't, but I'm not convinced that with OpenBSD you get anything more than a false sense of safety over any of the other options.

JuvenalUrbino

neb this is rad, thanks for sharing! Another extremely cool initiative, which I suppose you're aware of already, is OpenBSD Amsterdam. If I ever happened to get tired of self-hosting, that's certainly the one I'd opt for.

To further elaborate on this point, actually all the BSDs base systems come bounded with a nice set of home-grown software (with a minor contribution of 3rd party components, namely the toolchain), which is more than enough to launch simple yet fully-fledged servers (firewall, NAT gateway, BGP, FTP, DNS, HTTP, mail, file server, network file system, VMs, jails..), with the not negligible benefit of running a trusted secure system which has been extensively reviewed, tested, audited.
OpenBSD is the one with the most featured userland in this regard and the most varied set of native network daemons

neb

JuvenalUrbino yes, I was aware of Amsterdam - recently checked it out more closely recently as I'm interesting in "doing some serving" at some point.
BTW he uses -current in the ISP 😎

flfederation

JuvenalUrbino Linux compat and bluetooth met such a fate.

Having tried OpenBSD 6.7 and 5.9 (the latter just to try the compat layer) I can tell you you're not missing much. I also tried the compat layer in FreeBSD, which I'm pretty sure is based on similar code due to how you use it.

This thread is interesting for me, as I'm coming from the other side as the OP: I use OpenBSD and wonder if NetBSD is worth a try. I'm happy with a minimal OS, so I'm unlikely to switch to something with more features than I really need, but I tried FreeBSD first and I've mostly written it off for now. Though I did get farther with the FreeBSD compat layer.

Now for my experience with Linux compat: Originally tried it on FreeBSD, got PyPy running (that was my main goal, since the native PyPy on FreeBSD is deprecated, perhaps until the upstream devs figure out how to bootstrap compilation) but getting simple Linux apps to run in X was a matter of library issues. I got each dep copied over one at at time, until it complained about glibc. So FreeBSD, I only got working with command line apps.

When I enabled compat in OpenBSD 5.9, the last OpenBSD to feature the layer, it wanted me to install something in /emul/linux that I was unable to find (few mirrors feature the 5.9 tree that I could find). I guessed that the /compat/linux tree in FreeBSD (these are Linux ELFs, not BSD binaries) might correspond to /emul/linux (which didn't even exist, except in documentation) on OpenBSD, so I made an archive of it, copied it to OpenBSD and unzipped it to /emul/linux.

At this point I could tell that the compat layer was working, because instead of complaining about the wrong syntax (in a binary) it would complain about a missing lib instead. I would copy the lib, then it would complain about a different dependency. And so on, but unlike with FreeBSD I never got a single Linux binary application to actually run. What they removed wasn't much. As for Bluetooth... I don't use it in GNU/Linux so I don't need it in BSD, but I can imagine a number of people with hardware that is useless without it.

kamil

NetBSD has a welcoming community gathered around eye-candy forum on UnitedBSD.

kamil and you, @nia and @nikita are here as well 🙂
Maybe this should be our own daemon forum...

nikita

pin given that I just read a mention from August 2020 and September 2020 this gives you an indication how "much" time I spent on here or why you should not count on me seeing anything on here.

joany

Dual boot is the key 🥳

nikita No worries. Happy to see you around again.

netneo

20-100 I was lucky to find Devuan at the moment to get myself out of that mess, but since then, I've been actively looking for alternatives. It seems that in 2020, the only dependable Linux distro is Void. That's a bit scary!
Last year, I decided to explore the BSD family. The most accessible to me was FreeBSD and I learned a lot with it. However, in spite of all its qualities, [...]

Very similar to my own experience. I've used Linux distributions (mainly on the desktop) for years but always found myself playing around with the BSD family and being amazed at the straightforwardness and simplicity of their configuration, particularly since most Linuces have moved to the mess that is systemd.

Devuan has been great for me in that respect but they still depend on Debian and it's going to get increasingly difficult, I suspect, to keep it systemd and clutter-free. I appreciate Slackware for that reason but figured I might as well go full BSD at that point. The good thing is it's pushed me to deepen my knowledge of command line configuration to get rid of the bloat and take a more "system agnostic" approach to configuring my systems.

Over the years I also realized I want an OS that is dependable, consistent and doesn't change too much. I also don't need to be on the bleeding edge all the time and don't want to be subjected to new releases every six months that would often break my system (yes, Fedora, looking at you here!) and I'm not big on rolling releases either. I want a system that's predictable, reliable, simple (in a Unix sort of way) and stable and let's me do whatever the hell I want with it (well, within reasonable bounds I guess).

The wholesale deprecation of the traditional net-tools (ifconfig etc.) by most Linux distributions is something that I really, really, really disliked as well, and that was around the time they went with systemd (if I recall correctly) which is increasingly taking over all aspects of the system. Not to mention Ubuntu (which I never used on bare metal) with its rootless setup by default (last time I checked). I'm not a developer (no offense to any of you out there) and have more of a "sysadmin" mentality so all this change for change's sake where each release feels like it's in a perpetual "beta" state is, frankly, off-putting to me.

I've found the solution, though.

wvr

I see there's a lot of NetBSD users on this forum and a lot of OpenBSD bashing in this thread.
I honestly don't see a point in installing NetBSD over FreeBSD or Linux on normal, modern hardware in 2021.

OpenBSD all the way IMO.
It's a highly opinionated system where things are done the "right way" or not at all.
Secure by default, dead simple to get going in minutes, with the best documentation around.
Many call it "security theatre", but they're always leading innovation on new mitigations.
Things that eventually, begrudgingly, end up in Linux/FreeBSD down the line.

Ask a question on the mailing lists, irc, or subreddit, and you'll get a response from the actual developers.
All this talk about them being "elitists" or "harsh", (especially theo), is misdirected, they're just blunt.
If your code or solution sucks, they'll tell you so; if you ask a question already in the docs/archives, you'll get RTFM. It's refreshing coming from other circles, people are encouraged to think for themselves.

Some valid downsides to OBSD:

no Linux/WINE compat (which you shouldn't be using anyway)
no checksumming filesystem (read: ZFS on OpenBSD)
performance (what's cheaper: hardware or maintenance/security?)
driver support, especially wifi (NetBSD wins here)
virtualization still in development (see: vmd)

pfr

EDIT: I wasn't going to post this after I wrote it because it's kind of anecdotal rambling, but I figured as the OP I should clarify my current view.
_

wvr if you ask a question already in the docs/archives, you'll get RTFM

For an amateur UNIX hobbyist like myself, this is the main reason I've not yet visited OpenBSD. I acknowledge that it's pointless to argue that anyone should be hand-held through a technical learning process if your community is built around the belief that everyone should be able to read the official documentation and understand it. However, all software differences/similarities aside, my choice to stick with NetBSD ultimately boils down to its community and largely the UnitedBSD community.

I started this thread after my first installation of NetBSD. NetBSD was the first BSD that took my attention after reading about the history of UNIX. However, the OpenBSD hype was effective and I was curious myself why NetBSD seemed more popular on this forum while across most other platforms OpenBSD seemed to have larger user base. I knew nothing about the OpenBSD community, other than it seemed a little intimidating to a newbie and I certainly got the impression that I shouldn't ask stupid questions until I'd at least read the docs. Fair enough.

My background is in social work and community services, so of course this is the lens through which I view most of my experiences. I believe this view also holds merit when it comes to the world of software and especially FOSS. A community or group is usually formed around a common interest or goal that is determined by its members. It would appear to a new comer like myself that the OpenBSD community doesn't place a whole lot of value on new users who may not yet have the technical knowledge to participate in or contribute to the community. This is not to say that there is anything wrong with this approach, it just demonstrates that the majority view.

When I found the UnitedBSD community I was astounded with the welcoming nature of its members, most of whom use NetBSD, although ALL the users on UnitedBSD have been wonderfully helpful. No one has been remotely "blunt" in responding to my stupid or sometimes lazy questions. I came here with nothing to offer the BSD community and yet I was guided through my first installation and through each and every subsequent mishap or breakage (by a few users in particular, you know who you are 👍️).

I know none of this is relevant to anyone interested in the differences between the two operating systems, and I don't think my experience should be considered universal. I do however think it is worth remembering that these projects are built by its members and it is worth revisiting the goals set out by the community. In my view the end 'Product' is not just the operating system itself, with all of it's technical uniqueness, its also the community of contributors.

A prominent goal of the NetBSD project is portability across devices and architectures. Now it might be a far stretch, but I would try to reason that the notion of portability also extends to community inclusiveness. By welcoming new users and encouraging engagement in forums, even if that means asking stupid questions before reading the documentation. This is the one attribute of the Net/UnitedBSD community that has stood out and has resulted in me staying. Again, this may not be valued or seen as worthwhile to some, especially because I still don't have a lot to offer back to the community. But 'not if but when' I start making contributions to the NetBSD project, however small they might be, this will be my answer to anyone who asks me why I chose NetBSD.

oui

wvr Finally someone with a different opinion on this forum, hope this can continue to be a civil discussion and an opportunity to learn more about both systems.

I currently use NetBSD as a daily driver on fairly modern hardware over OpenBSD. I have used OpenBSD as a daily driver and as my main web server in the past but later switched to NetBSD for reasons I'll discuss later down below.

wvr I honestly don't see a point in installing NetBSD over FreeBSD or Linux

I don't really see the point in bringing up Linux here. This is a BSD forum and since this is not a BSD vs Linux thread (which already have been discussed to death across the web) I'll refrain from going beyond here - we all here have our reasons to prefer BSD.

It seems to me that you don't have a lot of experience with NetBSD to be directly comparing it to FreeBSD which are two very different projects with different goals - but that is okay and I'm sure you are way more knowledgeable than me in regards to OpenBSD which I hope to learn more about.

NetBSD isn't very good at marketing. Their slogan "Of course it runs NetBSD" can me misleading and a very common misconception about NetBSD is that it only is an OS that you would use for exotic old hardware. Another misconception is due to it's portability and support for all kinds of different architectures means that it's comparison-wise a complex and bloated system - which in reality is the completely opposite. NetBSD seems to be very misunderstood and underplayed in the "suckless community", due to OpenBSD's favorable stance on security NetBSD gets thrown under the bus and people tend to neglect it's simple, clean design.

It's not about NetBSD supporting the most hardware, in fact Linux runs on way more hardware. The emphasize is on that NetBSD is a more portable OS due to it's simple design. Why? Strong focus on correct, clean code and the use of clear distinctions between machine-dependent and machine-independent code. NetBSD's focus on simplicity is what makes it portable.

I know you Mitch value simplicity since you are a suckless user and have been for a very long time. Simplicity alone is a valid reason to prefer NetBSD over FreeBSD so you should understand where I'm coming from. FreeBSD is not a simple system.

It's fair to argue that no modern OS is simple, but if you want a modern comparison-wise simple *nix OS - NetBSD or OpenBSD is usually the choice. Why Net over Open? While both systems have technical differences and different stances in regard to security and software simplicity, I wouldn't argue that neither is a "better" nor technical superior system and it usually boils down to use case and taste in software.

Another reason to prefer NetBSD is actual 1 tier support for ARM. While yes, OpenBSD and FreeBSD has partial ARM support, NetBSD is the only BSD which has proper ARM support.

So yes, there are reasons to run NetBSD on "modern" hardware in 2021 just as much there is a reason to run OpenBSD.

nia

they are definitely not leading the way on things like sanitizers, kernel fuzzing, ksalr, etc etc

wvr

nia How?

OpenBSD has had KARL for kaslr since 6.2
you can use syzkaller along with kcov(4) to fuzz the kernel if you wish
OpenBSD has kubsan(4), XRay for x86_64, libFuzzer

nia

wvr This is a fraction of the functionality available under Linux and NetBSD

nortonham

pfr

In my time experimenting with the three major BSD's, Free never did much for me, I found Open easiest to install and start using, and the documentation is mostly straightforward. There's also some decent 3rd party resources. Net i've used the least. I like it, but again, I find Open easiest to just start using. I'm not really qualified to say that open's fame revolves around "security theatre," or which OS is technically superior in one way or another. (I actually have my own thoughts about openbsd's increase in popularity, but that's not really important here.)

In terms of the communities, I think open gets a bad rap re: their community online. If you check out their sub reddit, you'll often see people asking basic questions, and getting answers. OpenBSD developers even answer questions. I understand it's probably different on the mailing lists. I do wonder if developers of OpenBSD (or any BSD/Linux project) get tired of answering the same question over and over again, and that leads to the RTFM thing.

edit: I do agree with you that this community is one of the most welcoming in the bsd (and linux) ecosystem

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